proposed changes

Change declaration from:

The people who keep the Sabbath, dress modestly, have no tattoos, keep Passover, and who make this declaration and abide by it are my people.

to:

The people who keep the Mikraite requirements and who make this declaration and abide by it are my people.

This allows us to change the requirements without changing the declaration.


Add to passover that we should repeat the declaration.  This is to affirm our commitment to the requirements even if they change.


Remove "Make the Declaration" from the requirements.  The requirements should be recurring or continuous actions, not one-time actions.  So "The Declaration" would be an independent item on the home page.


Add a new requirement for attending a good religious service at least once a year.  This change motivated the others.  I want to make it official that we need to associate with a non-trivial religion.  If we ever grow enough to have our own physical service, then we can meet this requirement ourselves.  Until then, we should at least find a decent religion near where we live.  My definition of a good religion is one that worships the god of the Old Testament and that separates the sexes in service (as proof of not submitting to evil modern culture).  Islam, Orthodox Judaism, and traditional Anabaptists meet this requirement, but any religion that you can find that meets this requirement is fine.  We can discuss this at meeting tomorrow, but if you can't make that meeting, you can post comments to this thread.

We can talk about this tomorrow but I want to post some thoughts so I don't forget.

I think the wording of the declaration should be changed, but not to what you say.

I've personally viewed the rules like commandments as opposed to regulations like you find enumerated in Deuteronomy. Every time the rules are changed it undermines them as a commandment. I'm fine with them being changed if they are only a regulation but not if they are anything resembling a commandment. So I would rather the declaration from now on explicitly states that it is a regulation.

The people who follow Mikraite regulations and who make this declaration and abide by it are my people.

The declaration as it stands now is a one time thing. By keeping it a one time thing this makes it a unique transition from non-Mikraite to Mikraite. I think by it being a one time thing it is closer to a tradition and it feels like it carries more weight. I would rather there be a new declaration made specifically for renewing. It could be something like:

I renew...

About being required to attend a good religious service I don't see the immediate practical value in this but I'm open to hearing your reasoning for it. Also for most people their only options will be Islam or Orthodox Judaism. Anabaptists are usually far away.

We talked about this for a while after our last meeting.

When we narrowed things down I think the conclusion we arrived at was that you're proposing this because you a) want people to be exposed to other religions and b) you're not confident people will do this on their own. I agreed with these conclusions but I've thought about this more.

I was going to write something long winded but I think it's better to keep this as short as possible to focus on our core differences.

I think our core difference is that fundamentally speaking you see religion first as concepts and second as identity. You prioritize concepts over identity and are willing to suppress or adopt a new identity For example you would be perfectly happy attending a Nazi meeting or an Eritrean service if they followed your concepts and allowed you to join.

Maybe this reflects why you like researching other religions and I don't. You are identity neutral and don't invest your ego in any anything. Where as I need an identity for everything else to work.

What you're proposing obviously conflicts with someone who cares about identity.

Maybe I am alone here. I would like to hear what others in our group say. And I would like to talk about identity next meeting.

How important is identity to others in this group?

Again, I think you have this backwards.  Mikraite currently handles concepts fine.  What it doesn't handle is identity.  The religions I visit don't share my concepts, but they address identity.  I don't expect Mikraites to adopt the identity of these religions, but I do expect attending these religions to cause Mikraites to identify less with modern culture.  You feel more comfortable going to a Starbucks than to a mosque, and for me it is the reverse.  This is because your identity is still more aligned with modern culture than with other cultures.  This is what I want to stop, particularly for the children of Mikraites.

I hope more people attend our next meeting to discuss this, and I won't change our homepage until then.

fschmidt wrote

Mikraite currently handles concepts fine.

I agree.

fschmidt wrote

What it doesn't handle is identity.

I think identity is a spectrum with different degrees of overlap. If you look at our group we have things in common that we take for granted. We are all western or westernized, living in the west, mostly American, English speaking, essentially atheist, enlightened leaning, more or less egalitarian minded and traumatized by modern culture. No we are not the same race. Obviously this is a weak identity but it's still a lot of things that we take for granted. I don't think we would of gravitated to each other if we didn't have a number of these overlaps.

fschmidt wrote

The religions I visit don't share my concepts

By concepts I mean segregating gender and following the Old Testament. I don't know what you refer to this as.

fschmidt wrote

, but they address identity.

So you've been going to a mosque, do you identify as a Muslim or Arab or middle eastern?

fschmidt wrote

I don't expect Mikraites to adopt the identity of these religions,

You expect Mikraites to parrot the identity of these religions, which is actually worst. This attacks your own identity without replacing it with a better one.

fschmidt wrote

but I do expect attending these religions to cause Mikraites to identify less with modern culture.

I disagree. There is no such thing as subtraction without replacement. You are replacing "modern" culture with imitating traditional culture.

fschmidt wrote

You feel more comfortable going to a Starbucks than to a mosque, and for me it is the reverse. This is because your identity is still more aligned with modern culture than with other cultures.

 

It is not the reverse for you. You don't have an identity to begin with. You don't identify based on language, race, geography. You freely admit that you are not racist. To you everything is the same. This is why you can just as easily hop from Orthodox Jewish to Islam to Mennonites. That is a unique way of thinking. Most people are not that free thinking. Find for me another Orthodox Jew, Muslim or Mennonite who would do the same as you.

Drealm wrote

fschmidt wrote

The religions I visit don't share my concepts

By concepts I mean segregating gender and following the Old Testament. I don't know what you refer to this as.

The religions I visit don't follow the Old Testament.

fschmidt wrote

, but they address identity.

So you've been going to a mosque, do you identify as a Muslim or Arab or middle eastern?

No, I identify as anti-modern culture.

fschmidt wrote

I don't expect Mikraites to adopt the identity of these religions,

You expect Mikraites to parrot the identity of these religions, which is actually worst. This attacks your own identity without replacing it with a better one.

false

fschmidt wrote

but I do expect attending these religions to cause Mikraites to identify less with modern culture.

I disagree. There is no such thing as subtraction without replacement. You are replacing "modern" culture with imitating traditional culture.

False.  The subtraction is replaced with a general sense of identifying with religion generally.

fschmidt wrote

You feel more comfortable going to a Starbucks than to a mosque, and for me it is the reverse. This is because your identity is still more aligned with modern culture than with other cultures.

 
It is not the reverse for you. You don't have an identity to begin with. You don't identify based on language, race, geography. You freely admit that you are not racist. To you everything is the same. This is why you can just as easily hop from Orthodox Jewish to Islam to Mennonites. That is a unique way of thinking. Most people are not that free thinking. Find for me another Orthodox Jew, Muslim or Mennonite who would do the same as you.

They have no reason to.  But Will would do the same if he had the same level of interest in religion as I do.

Just because you can't label my identity doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.  I think I have quite a strong identity.  To me, clearly everything is not the same.  I hate modern culture with a passion.  I have well defined values and seek whatever is most compatible with those values.